> But my analysis of a 2013 Pew Survey of LGBTQ Americans -- the latest available comprehensive national survey data on this population -- showed that LGBTQ rural residents are actually more likely to be legally married than their urban counterparts -- 24.8% compared with 18.6%. This aligns with what I’ve heard in interviews. The rural LGBTQ people I spoke with placed a high value on monogamy – on what many of them consider a “normal” life.
This is one of those cases where causality is implied but is questionable. Finding lovers in the sticks is hard enough; it is exceptionally difficult if you are queer, and that's going to influence behavior and choices in all sorts of ways, and those can be rationalized in all sorts of ways, too.
A less charged example: adults living in cities are (probably) more likely to participate in, and value participating in, team sports. Let's assume they report honestly as such on a questionnaire.
Obviously, there are more opportunities to play sports in cities, but does that imply that rural folks wouldn't partake at about the same rate if they could, even though they say that they wouldn't?
I can see plausible arguments in either direction, and for several kinds of selection and reporting biases.
>But, as some of the people I interviewed reminded me, no matter where they lived they would not be fully accepted.
>“As a trans person, I’m always going to have to deal with people discriminating against me,” one woman said.
>Living in a rural locale with an active local music scene let her focus on aspects of her identity that were more important to her than her gender identity.
This is my experience as well. I don't experience more stares or scowls in rural areas than I do in urban centers. Even in San Francisco, being visibly transgender is often uncomfortable.
I've had the very same experience in Bavaria, even with Munich having a reputation as "million-sized village". (otoh said problem was even worse in Berlin and the Ruhr valley, when I visited)
Honestly, as a bisexual man I’ve gotten it way worse from the liberals in the big cities. Most of them are deeply biphobic and treat people terribly who aren’t a part of their in-group.
The rural folks are often homophobic but they have a code of decency and respect which applies to all people. Even though I knew they probably thought I was wrong in someway they at least treated me with genuine respect.
I don't mean to pick on you personally, but this sort of thing gets on my nerves and I have to take a moment to say something here.
I don't love how some people think I'm some sort of implicit threat or ticking time bomb because of stories they've heard or read about people like me. Like most people in the office, I just want to be able to do my work. I'm not trying to cause problems for people. The thought that me living my life makes some people feel like they have to walk on eggshells is awful. Luckily most people don't see me as some kind of threat like this, but it's obvious when people do.
I can't speak for everyone, but for me personally, going to HR for _anything_ is terrifying. Going to HR to complain about a valid grievance is scary. Going to HR over a simple mistake that a well-meaning person made feels like it would explode my career. It's hard enough to get a job as an openly transgender person.
> Once you / someone in your network gets HR’d over something new
I’ve met zero people who faced actual consequences for messing up a pronoun. Same for people who go thermonuclear over their preferred pronoun. Zero. Both seem to be more a feature of social media than reality.
I've met zero people who use pronouns. Definitely just a feature of social media reality and, based on job applications, HR people finding new ways to keep their jobs.
I do know people who have been laid off "at will" after getting reported to HR because they had the wrong political opinion.
everyone has pronouns, just that they align with their outward gender / gender identity.
btw i'm a sr engineering manager at a faang and my directory page has they/them pronouns on it. i don't care if people mess them up, and i don't correct people, but it's nice if they make an effort. the most nonbinary thing i do is paint my nails, but everything else about me is masc.
and i've worked in rural parts of america and have had the exact opposite: a conservative opinion including "hey this republican is a really great candidate, now go vote in the next election!" from companies on the s&p500.
> i've worked in rural parts of america and have had the exact opposite: a conservative opinion including "hey this republican is a really great candidate, now go vote in the next election!" from companies on the s&p500.
Yup. It's difficult to balance the freedom of assembly, on one hand, and the freedom of political speech, on the other hand.
Given political opinions are mutable it seems reasonable to hold people accountable for ones they express at the workplace. I'm less comfortable about punishing people at work for opinions expressed outside of it. But it's also naive to pretend customers, vendors and the public won't judge you based on the public opinions of your employees.
> Freedom of expression, but only for those with Fuck You money?
Not really. Economic independence (a) obviously confers freedom and (b) does not require fuck-you money. It usually comes at a cost, namely, material comforts. But this has always been a civic balance even the wealthiest have to make. (For example, the billionaires kowtowing to Trump for fear of having fewer billions.)
It takes a lot of maturity to not care what someone calls you (as long as they don't mean disrespect, and sometimes even if they do). Irrespective of trait, most people are not so thick skinned. That is why they go to HR over political disagreements. You may have seen it happen in rural parts. I've seen it happen in urban ones.
Unless any of your peers are cartoon cavemen who always use people's names in place of words like "I" or "him" or "us," I'm going to wager that 100% of the people you know do actually use pronouns.
I know LGBT people personally and professionally and was completely unaware of Pronouns until the first season of Billions. It made me think maybe it was an East Coast thing finally migrating West, but still, to this date, I don't know anyone who introduces themselves or specifies their pronouns. I haven't gone out of my way to avoid or encounter them.
You sound ridiculous because pronouns are just a normal part of speech which you have already demonstrated you use fluently. What you actually mean is that you hadn't encountered people specifying their preferred pronouns explicitly before. It's a thing you're most likely to encounter if you meet a trans/NB person where it's not entirely obvious from their presentation (especially online where you otherwise have a handle and a profile pic, both of which may be quite ambiguous. Women in tech are likely to do this even if not trans because of the strong tendency to assume male by default), or in spaces/from people who are trying to be inclusive of such (though, frankly, it's usually best dealt with a section in a bio or a badge. Even in the most queer spaces I've been in I don't think I've ever heard some say out loud "Hi, I'm X, pronouns foo/bar". Usually it's pretty obvious what they're going for, and if not, they'll have a badge or perhaps politely correct you if you assume wrong).
I stated it because it's entirely possible they didn't actually understand this, and that pronouns were entirely "some trans thing". Words do have meanings and it causes problems when they're used imprecisely like this. You can see other reactions that show less helpful responses to this confusion, because to many people the statement does just sound ridiculous. The intended meaning is a lot more understandable, and I'm quite sympathetic to it. My message is not meant be some dunk or preach about moral superiority, just an explaination for why they're getting the reaction that they are (which could, on reflection, be less blunt, sorry)
So this issue clearly doesn’t affect your life in any real tangible way, and yet for some reason it’s so triggering to you that you felt compelled to jump in on a thread about it, and I’d sure wager this isn’t the first time. Again, Why Are You Here? What makes this such a hot-button topic for you that, despite it having no actual affect on you at all, the mere act of someone announcing their pronouns in an online forum is sufficient to compel this kind of reaction from you?
Me? No. I have worked in many companies and seen my fair share of train wrecks.
I practice an abundance of caution in an office setting. I wish I didn't have to but the financial risk, for me, is far too great to have any kind of a political opinion.
I don't drink at company events. I don't ask personal questions. I don't have a political or personal opinion. I don't invite anyone at the office to personal events. God bless noise cancelling headphones!
It is very stifling and I don't wish it on anyone.
>I have worked in many companies and seen my fair share of train wrecks.
I'd love to hear some stories from you, if you're willing to share. I would like to understand why there's a segment of the population that is so afraid of people like me.
> But my analysis of a 2013 Pew Survey of LGBTQ Americans -- the latest available comprehensive national survey data on this population -- showed that LGBTQ rural residents are actually more likely to be legally married than their urban counterparts -- 24.8% compared with 18.6%. This aligns with what I’ve heard in interviews. The rural LGBTQ people I spoke with placed a high value on monogamy – on what many of them consider a “normal” life.
This is one of those cases where causality is implied but is questionable. Finding lovers in the sticks is hard enough; it is exceptionally difficult if you are queer, and that's going to influence behavior and choices in all sorts of ways, and those can be rationalized in all sorts of ways, too.
A less charged example: adults living in cities are (probably) more likely to participate in, and value participating in, team sports. Let's assume they report honestly as such on a questionnaire.
Obviously, there are more opportunities to play sports in cities, but does that imply that rural folks wouldn't partake at about the same rate if they could, even though they say that they wouldn't?
I can see plausible arguments in either direction, and for several kinds of selection and reporting biases.
Being married also offers legal protections that might be more valuable in environments where you anticipate needing any protections you can get.
Yes, reading that part, I assume that's because for most part, home ownership in rurarl is higher.
>But, as some of the people I interviewed reminded me, no matter where they lived they would not be fully accepted.
>“As a trans person, I’m always going to have to deal with people discriminating against me,” one woman said.
>Living in a rural locale with an active local music scene let her focus on aspects of her identity that were more important to her than her gender identity.
This is my experience as well. I don't experience more stares or scowls in rural areas than I do in urban centers. Even in San Francisco, being visibly transgender is often uncomfortable.
I've had the very same experience in Bavaria, even with Munich having a reputation as "million-sized village". (otoh said problem was even worse in Berlin and the Ruhr valley, when I visited)
Honestly, as a bisexual man I’ve gotten it way worse from the liberals in the big cities. Most of them are deeply biphobic and treat people terribly who aren’t a part of their in-group.
The rural folks are often homophobic but they have a code of decency and respect which applies to all people. Even though I knew they probably thought I was wrong in someway they at least treated me with genuine respect.
And, conversely, village people are probably exposed to less HR risk if they use the wrong pronoun.
"HR risk if they use the wrong pronoun"
I don't mean to pick on you personally, but this sort of thing gets on my nerves and I have to take a moment to say something here.
I don't love how some people think I'm some sort of implicit threat or ticking time bomb because of stories they've heard or read about people like me. Like most people in the office, I just want to be able to do my work. I'm not trying to cause problems for people. The thought that me living my life makes some people feel like they have to walk on eggshells is awful. Luckily most people don't see me as some kind of threat like this, but it's obvious when people do.
I can't speak for everyone, but for me personally, going to HR for _anything_ is terrifying. Going to HR to complain about a valid grievance is scary. Going to HR over a simple mistake that a well-meaning person made feels like it would explode my career. It's hard enough to get a job as an openly transgender person.
Once you / someone in your network gets HR’d over something new, you will take steps to prevent a repeat event.
> Once you / someone in your network gets HR’d over something new
I’ve met zero people who faced actual consequences for messing up a pronoun. Same for people who go thermonuclear over their preferred pronoun. Zero. Both seem to be more a feature of social media than reality.
I've met zero people who use pronouns. Definitely just a feature of social media reality and, based on job applications, HR people finding new ways to keep their jobs.
I do know people who have been laid off "at will" after getting reported to HR because they had the wrong political opinion.
everyone has pronouns, just that they align with their outward gender / gender identity.
btw i'm a sr engineering manager at a faang and my directory page has they/them pronouns on it. i don't care if people mess them up, and i don't correct people, but it's nice if they make an effort. the most nonbinary thing i do is paint my nails, but everything else about me is masc.
and i've worked in rural parts of america and have had the exact opposite: a conservative opinion including "hey this republican is a really great candidate, now go vote in the next election!" from companies on the s&p500.
> i've worked in rural parts of america and have had the exact opposite: a conservative opinion including "hey this republican is a really great candidate, now go vote in the next election!" from companies on the s&p500.
Yup. It's difficult to balance the freedom of assembly, on one hand, and the freedom of political speech, on the other hand.
Given political opinions are mutable it seems reasonable to hold people accountable for ones they express at the workplace. I'm less comfortable about punishing people at work for opinions expressed outside of it. But it's also naive to pretend customers, vendors and the public won't judge you based on the public opinions of your employees.
Freedom of expression, but only for those with Fuck You money?
> Freedom of expression, but only for those with Fuck You money?
Not really. Economic independence (a) obviously confers freedom and (b) does not require fuck-you money. It usually comes at a cost, namely, material comforts. But this has always been a civic balance even the wealthiest have to make. (For example, the billionaires kowtowing to Trump for fear of having fewer billions.)
It takes a lot of maturity to not care what someone calls you (as long as they don't mean disrespect, and sometimes even if they do). Irrespective of trait, most people are not so thick skinned. That is why they go to HR over political disagreements. You may have seen it happen in rural parts. I've seen it happen in urban ones.
> I've met zero people who use pronouns.
Unless any of your peers are cartoon cavemen who always use people's names in place of words like "I" or "him" or "us," I'm going to wager that 100% of the people you know do actually use pronouns.
> I've met zero people who use pronouns
So what the hell are you doing in this thread?
I know LGBT people personally and professionally and was completely unaware of Pronouns until the first season of Billions. It made me think maybe it was an East Coast thing finally migrating West, but still, to this date, I don't know anyone who introduces themselves or specifies their pronouns. I haven't gone out of my way to avoid or encounter them.
You sound ridiculous because pronouns are just a normal part of speech which you have already demonstrated you use fluently. What you actually mean is that you hadn't encountered people specifying their preferred pronouns explicitly before. It's a thing you're most likely to encounter if you meet a trans/NB person where it's not entirely obvious from their presentation (especially online where you otherwise have a handle and a profile pic, both of which may be quite ambiguous. Women in tech are likely to do this even if not trans because of the strong tendency to assume male by default), or in spaces/from people who are trying to be inclusive of such (though, frankly, it's usually best dealt with a section in a bio or a badge. Even in the most queer spaces I've been in I don't think I've ever heard some say out loud "Hi, I'm X, pronouns foo/bar". Usually it's pretty obvious what they're going for, and if not, they'll have a badge or perhaps politely correct you if you assume wrong).
Sry but that pedantic correction is what sounds ridiculous.
You even understood him since you said “what u actually mean”
It’s exactly this kind of moral preachery nonsense that puts people off, more than actual pronouns imo
I stated it because it's entirely possible they didn't actually understand this, and that pronouns were entirely "some trans thing". Words do have meanings and it causes problems when they're used imprecisely like this. You can see other reactions that show less helpful responses to this confusion, because to many people the statement does just sound ridiculous. The intended meaning is a lot more understandable, and I'm quite sympathetic to it. My message is not meant be some dunk or preach about moral superiority, just an explaination for why they're getting the reaction that they are (which could, on reflection, be less blunt, sorry)
So this issue clearly doesn’t affect your life in any real tangible way, and yet for some reason it’s so triggering to you that you felt compelled to jump in on a thread about it, and I’d sure wager this isn’t the first time. Again, Why Are You Here? What makes this such a hot-button topic for you that, despite it having no actual affect on you at all, the mere act of someone announcing their pronouns in an online forum is sufficient to compel this kind of reaction from you?
Genuine question, have you been HR'd over something new? Could you share your experiences?
Me? No. I have worked in many companies and seen my fair share of train wrecks.
I practice an abundance of caution in an office setting. I wish I didn't have to but the financial risk, for me, is far too great to have any kind of a political opinion.
I don't drink at company events. I don't ask personal questions. I don't have a political or personal opinion. I don't invite anyone at the office to personal events. God bless noise cancelling headphones!
It is very stifling and I don't wish it on anyone.
>I have worked in many companies and seen my fair share of train wrecks.
I'd love to hear some stories from you, if you're willing to share. I would like to understand why there's a segment of the population that is so afraid of people like me.
Would be interesting to see a study that looked at whether gays or lesbians were more likely to retire to the countryside.
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